Cross-Written Community

dwiAgus · **Joined:** Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:31 pm **Posts:** 100

"To welcome the end of the old feudal theocracy in Tibet is not to applaud everything about Chinese rule in that country. This point is seldom understood by today’s Shangri-La believers in the West. The converse is also true: To denounce the Chinese occupation does not mean we have to romanticize the former feudal régime. Tibetans deserve to be perceived as actual people, not perfected spiritualists or innocent political symbols. “To idealize them,” notes Ma Jian, a dissident Chinese traveler to Tibet (now living in Britain), “is to deny them their humanity.”

One common complaint among Buddhist followers in the West is that Tibet’s religious culture is being undermined by the Chinese occupation. To some extent this seems to be the case. Many of the monasteries are closed, and much of the theocracy seems to have passed into history. Whether Chinese rule has brought betterment or disaster is not the central issue here. The question is what kind of country was old Tibet. What I am disputing is the supposedly pristine spiritual nature of that pre-invasion culture. We can advocate religious freedom and independence for a new Tibet without having to embrace the mythology about old Tibet."

Whatever the Dalai Lama’s associations with the CIA and various reactionaries, he did speak often of peace, love, and nonviolence. He himself really cannot be blamed for the abuses of Tibet’s ancien régime, having been but 25 years old when he fled into exile. In a 1994 interview, he went on record as favoring the building of schools and roads in his country. He said the corvée (forced unpaid serf labor) and certain taxes imposed on the peasants were “extremely bad.” And he disliked the way people were saddled with old debts sometimes passed down from generation to generation. During the half century of living in the western world, he had embraced concepts such as human rights and religious freedom, ideas largely unknown in old Tibet. He even proposed democracy for Tibet, featuring a written constitution and a representative assembly.48

In 1996, the Dalai Lama issued a statement that must have had an unsettling effect on the exile community. It read in part: “Marxism is founded on moral principles, while capitalism is concerned only with gain and profitability.” Marxism fosters “the equitable utilization of the means of production” and cares about “the fate of the working classes” and “the victims of . . . exploitation. For those reasons the system appeals to me, and . . . I think of myself as half-Marxist, half-Buddhist.49

But he also sent a reassuring message to “those who live in abundance”: “It is a good thing to be rich... Those are the fruits for deserving actions, the proof that they have been generous in the past.” And to the poor he offers this admonition: “There is no good reason to become bitter and rebel against those who have property and fortune... It is better to develop a positive attitude.”50

In 2005 the Dalai Lama signed a widely advertised statement along with ten other Nobel Laureates supporting the “inalienable and fundamental human right” of working people throughout the world to form labor unions to protect their interests, in accordance with the United Nations’ Universal Declaration of Human Rights. In many countries “this fundamental right is poorly protected and in some it is explicitly banned or brutally suppressed,” the statement read. Burma, China, Colombia, Bosnia, and a few other countries were singled out as among the worst offenders. Even the United States “fails to adequately protect workers’ rights to form unions and bargain collectively. Millions of U.S. workers lack any legal protection to form unions….”

The Dalai Lama also gave full support to removing the ingrained traditional obstacles that have kept Tibetan nuns from receiving an education. Upon arriving in exile, few nuns could read or write. In Tibet their activities had been devoted to daylong periods of prayer and chants. But in northern India they now began reading Buddhist philosophy and engaging in theological study and debate, activities that in old Tibet had been open only to monks.

dwiAgus · **Joined:** Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:31 pm **Posts:** 100

kalow pengen liat contoh artikel yang lebih balance, dan tidak bias: liat ini,....
http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html
ia mengkritik feodalisme dan perbudakan tibet,.... tapi gak sekedar berhenti di situ saja,... tapi juga mengkritisi cara china meng-undermine tibet,...

jangan seperti tulisan yang mengaku ingin menawarkan balance,... tapi dia sendiri sudah timpang,...

SarapanPagi · **Joined:** Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:48 pm **Posts:** 96

Tentu, saya juga membaca tulisan Michael Parenti. Ia tidak pro Dalai Lama, Ia juga mengetengahkan suatu kenyataan bahwa ada Feodalisme, ada Perbudakan, tatanan masyarakat yang timpang.

Sebelum China membebaskan Tibet 1950, Tibet bukan Surga. Sebelum itu banyak pertempuran terjadi di Tibet, yang dilakukan sesama orang Tibet? Tibet saat itu adalah salah satu wilayah yang mempraktekkan perbudakan. Contoh yang paling baik adalah para bangsawan jika ingin naik kuda akan memakai badan budaknya sebagai tumpuan! Inikah "surga" yang kemudian perlu dikembalikan asalnya?

Dalam suatu tananan masyarakat yang terdapat ketimpangan yang sangat ekstrim, cara membasminya hanya dengan Revolusi. Revolusi Perancis terjadi karena hal ini juga.
Populasi Tibet tahun 1950-an adalah 1,2juta, dan 1juta-nya adalah kalangan budak!. Budak yang bagaikan binatang dapat bicara, budak yang sangat sengsara dibanding perbudakan yang terjadi di tempat lain.

Quote:

Di sebelah adalah sebuah contoh foto seorang budak perempuan berusia 35 tahun, terlihat seperti orang yang berumur 65 tahun. Budak di Tibet tidak pernah ada kesempatan untuk bebas. Mereka rata-rata mati pada umur 40-an, orang yang terlahir dari kaum budak selamanya akan menjadi budak. Dahi seorang budak, sama kasarnya dengan telapak kakinya, karena setiap kali berada di hadapan tuannya, budak itu harus menyembah tuannya dengan membenturkan dahinya ke tanah. Budak hanyalah alat, tidak ada HAM, budak lebih rendah dari anjing. Budak tidak mempunyai harta, baju yang melekat di badannya, itulah hartanya. Bahkan ada istilah dalam bahasa lokal : "Budak hanya dapat membawa bayangannya dan meninggalkan bekas telapak kakinya, itulah hartanya budak".

Photo budak itu, satu diantara 1juta budak lainnya. Pembasmian perbudakan seperti di Tibet kala itu, memang harus dengan Revolusi, tidak bisa dengan dialog dan perjanjian2. Saya bukan pendukung komunisme, tetapi dalam beberapa kasus, pelanggaran ham atas nama agama dapat terhapus dengan cara ekstrim seperti ini, seperti juga adanya revolusi di Rusia.

Budak-budak di Tibet yang masih muda yang telah dibebaskan, seperti kisah ibu Basang, dikirim Shanghai untuk diberi pendidikan, mereka diberi martabat menjadi manusia, mereka kemudian menjadi guru, menjadi dokter, penulis, tekhnisi, pedagang dll. Sampai sekarang Tibet dibangun, lihat saja pembangunan jalan-jalan disana, lebih bagus daripada jalan-jalan di daerah2 Indonesia. Pembangunan jalur kereta-apo satu2nya di dunia dibangun di ketinggian 4000m adalah komitmen pemerintah pusat menjadikan Tibet tetap sebagai bagian intergal yang harus dibangun sebagaimana daerah2 lain.

Dalai Lama itu seperti Pu Yi, memegang jabatan sejak masa anak-anak, kekuasaan dipegang oleh para Lama, saat para Lama harus lari, Dalai Lama juga masih sangat muda. 1950 Tentara Pembebasan datang, 1 juta budak dibebaskan, kaum minoritas, yaitu para feodal/ elite lari ke India/ negara2 lain. kemudian mereka berteriak dizolimi. Dan harus diingat pula Budhanya Tibet itu beda dengan Budha yang lain.

Tibet adalah bagian integral dari China, seperti Aceh bagi Indonesia, ataupun Alaska bagi AS.
Ada jutaan etnis Tibet yang hidup aman di banyak provinsi-provinsi China. Mengapa etnis Han tidak boleh hidup di Tibet? Kebanyakan etnis Tibet cinta damai dan mau hidup berdampingan dengan etnis Han.

Kalau tidak sering datang ke China, tentu saya tidak dapat bicara banyak. Dulu, saya adalah seorang yang termasuk orang yang tidak menyukai kembalinya Hongkong ke China, juga termasuk phobia China daratan. Tapi tahun 1997 saya khusus datang melihat suasana hand-over yang damai, sekaligus melihat bagaimana 1 country 2 systems dijalankan, kemudian berlanjut dengan Macao, dan yang segera akan datang adalah Taiwan.

Mereka bisa peace.

dwiAgus · **Joined:** Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:31 pm **Posts:** 100

mesti diperjelas bahwa:
1. ada old tibet,.. .ada new tibet,.... 50thn masa tidak berubah sih? ditengah perubahan dunia yang menakjubkan selama 50thn terakhir ini,...

2. kurang tepat bila mengambil alasan background perbudakan sebagai justifikasi untuk pencaplokan,dan kolonisasi,.... ingat: masyarakat tibet merasa mereka hanya pernah dijajah oleh mongolia,....

3. mendukung masyarakat tibet untuk menentukan nasibnya sendiri (sebagai bagian dari HAM) bukan berarti mendukung theokrasi, feodalisme dan slavery,..... mengkritisi kebijakan one-china yang represif, harus disertai kritisi terhadap old theokrasi dan slavery yang dipraktekan sebagaian masyarakat elit tibet jaman dulu,......

4. jadi, dorong masyarakat tibet untuk menentukan nasibnya sendiri,.... dan kemudian dorong untuk demokasi dan meninggalkan teokrasi,feodalisme dan slavery,....

kasus hongkong kembali ke china khan memang sudah konsensus awal antara china dan british ...... mereka sudah setuju, ketika sudah expired perjanjiannya, british akan mengembalikan hongkong ke china,....

kalau taiwandan macau bolehlah, menganggap mereka sebagai "anak yang membangkang"

kalau tibet dan china,.. apa sudah ada konsensus antara dua pihak itu,.. selain tiba-tiba ada okupasi dan aneksasi,... padahal masyarakat tibet merasa hanya dijajah oleh mongolia,....

dwiAgus · **Joined:** Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:31 pm **Posts:** 100

woiya ini juga perlu ditegaskan kembali

dwiAgus wrote:

apa sesederahana itu melihat:
1. dalailama jadi pemimpin spiritual tibet
2. dalailama dipercaya oleh banyak orang
3. dalailama terpaksa menyingkir ke pengasingan
4. dalailama ingin tibet menentukan nasibnya sendiri
5. dalailama menyuarakan aspirasi mereka masyarakat tibet yang terbuang
6. dalailama ingin kembali ke tibet dan hidup damai, tanpa ditekan China

lantas kesimpulannya: Dalailama punya syahwat politik, pengen jadi raja tibet,..... ???
walah-walah,... kok bisa begini analisis logicnya?.....
kesimpulan yang terlalu sederhana, sangat terburu-buru,dan narrow minded... tanpa fakta,basis argumen,analisis logis.

lucu saja,..
minta orang lain untuk tidak mudah menginterpretasi .... tidak umbar caci maki,.. dan tidak inkuisisi
tapi kok mudah menginterpretasi dengan penuh cacimaki,dan maksud inkuisisi mengatakan dalailama punya syahwat politik,... (saya rasa ada alasan khusus kenapa menggunakan kata "syahwat" bukan?)

ingin perlakuan fair, tapi gak memperlakukan pihak lain secara fair.
bilang orang lain melakukan ad-hominem,.. tapi gak mampu melihat diri sendiri telah dan sedang melakukan ad-hominem...
penuh paradoks,... standard ganda,.......
hanya bawa teori konspirasi (bilang:ada pihak ketiga ingin mengalahkan dominasi china) dan interpretasi ......

yah mereka bisa peace,... bisa saja peace dalam satu negara kesatuan,...
tapi juga bis apeace tanpa harus jadi satu negara kesatuan,...
it takes two to tango,.. kalow tibet gak mau dansa tango dengan china, kenapa harus memaksakan diri?....

SarapanPagi · **Joined:** Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:48 pm **Posts:** 96

Kutip dari : http://kaskus.us/showthread.php?p=28325574#post28325574

TIBET FACT

Soal sejarah Tibet dan Invasi Tibet oleh China di tahun 1950-1951.

Sumber :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1950-19...asion_of_Tibet
http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

Michael Parenti is an internationally known award-winning author and lecturer. He is one of the nation’s leading progressive political analysts. His highly informative and entertaining books and talks have reached a wide range of audiences in North America and abroad.

artikel dari Michael Parenti panjang, dipecah2 biar lebih enak menjelaskannya, silahkan baca secara lengkap di wesite dia.

1.) Apakah Tibet bagian dari China?

Tibet bagian dari China sejak Dinasti Qing dan negara / kerajaan lain juga mengakui hal tersebut:

peta yang dibuat di India

peta yang di dibuat oleh Jerman

peta yang dibuat USA ketika Dinasti Qing masih berkuasa

Dinasti Qing runtuh disambung oleh Republic of China

SarapanPagi · **Joined:** Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:48 pm **Posts:** 96

2.) Bagaimana hubungan Tibet dengan Dinasti Qing?

Kaisar Qian Long lah yang menganugerahkan Grand Lama Gelar Dalai Lama dan menunjuk Dalai Lama sebagai penguasa Tibet, baik dalam hal politik dan spiritual.

http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

Quote:

In the thirteenth century, Emperor Kublai Khan created the first Grand Lama, who was to preside over all the other lamas as might a pope over his bishops. Several centuries later, the Emperor of China sent an army into Tibet to support the Grand Lama, an ambitious 25-year-old man, who then gave himself the title of Dalai (Ocean) Lama, ruler of all Tibet. Here is a historical irony: the first Dalai Lama was installed by a Chinese army.

3.) lalu bagaimana hubungan Tibet dengan China pada jaman modern China (ROC & PRC)

http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

Quote:

Over the centuries the Tibetan lords and lamas had seen Chinese come and go, and had enjoyed good relations with Generalissimo Chiang Kaishek and his reactionary Kuomintang rule in China.26 The approval of the Kuomintang government was needed to validate the choice of the Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama. When the current 14th Dalai Lama was first installed in Lhasa, it was with an armed escort of Chinese troops and an attending Chinese minister, in accordance with centuries-old tradition. What upset the Tibetan lords and lamas in the early 1950s was that these latest Chinese were Communists. It would be only a matter of time, they feared, before the Communists started imposing their collectivist egalitarian schemes upon Tibet.

what is "egalitarian" ?

Egalitarianism (derived from the French word égal, meaning equal) is a political doctrine that holds that all people should be treated as equals from birth.

----> artinya penghapusan sistem perbudakan di Tibet

SarapanPagi · **Joined:** Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:48 pm **Posts:** 96

4.) Bagaimana kehidupan di Tibet sebelum pemerintah komunis China memberlakukan Reformasi Sosial di Tibet?

http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

Quote:

In old Tibet there were small numbers of farmers who subsisted as a kind of free peasantry, and perhaps an additional 10,000 people who composed the “middle-class” families of merchants, shopkeepers, and small traders. Thousands of others were beggars. There also were slaves, usually domestic servants, who owned nothing. Their offspring were born into slavery. 15 The majority of the rural population were serfs. Treated little better than slaves, the serfs went without schooling or medical care, They were under a lifetime bond to work the lord's land--or the monastery’s land--without pay, to repair the lord's houses, transport his crops, and collect his firewood. They were also expected to provide carrying animals and transportation on demand.16 Their masters told them what crops to grow and what animals to raise. They could not get married without the consent of their lord or lama. And they might easily be separated from their families should their owners lease them out to work in a distant location. 17

As in a free labor system and unlike slavery, the overlords had no responsibility for the serf’s maintenance and no direct interest in his or her survival as an expensive piece of property. The serfs had to support themselves. Yet as in a slave system, they were bound to their masters, guaranteeing a fixed and permanent workforce that could neither organize nor strike nor freely depart as might laborers in a market context. The overlords had the best of both worlds.

One 22-year old woman, herself a runaway serf, reports: “Pretty serf girls were usually taken by the owner as house servants and used as he wished”; they “were just slaves without rights.”18 Serfs needed permission to go anywhere. Landowners had legal authority to capture those who tried to flee. One 24-year old runaway welcomed the Chinese intervention as a “liberation.” He testified that under serfdom he was subjected to incessant toil, hunger, and cold. After his third failed escape, he was merciless beaten by the landlord’s men until blood poured from his nose and mouth. They then poured alcohol and caustic soda on his wounds to increase the pain, he claimed.19

The theocracy’s religious teachings buttressed its class order. The poor and afflicted were taught that they had brought their troubles upon themselves because of their wicked ways in previous lives. Hence they had to accept the misery of their present existence as a karmic atonement and in anticipation that their lot would improve in their next lifetime. The rich and powerful treated their good fortune as a reward for, and tangible evidence of, virtue in past and present lives.

5.) Invasi Tibet di tahun 1950 oleh People Liberation Army (PLA), apakah benar terjadi pembantaian rakyat Tibet oleh PLA?

Pembantaian rakyat Tibet tidak pernah terjadi ketika invasi, Dalai Lama sendiri juga mengakui.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_o ... %80%931951)

Quote:

According to Samdhong Rinpoche and the 14th Dalai Lama, on January 1, 1950 the PRC promised to "liberate" Tibet. The People's Liberation Army first entered eastern Tibet (Chamdo) on October 7, 1950 the PLA invaded,[3]. The highly mobile units of the PLA quickly surrounded the outnumbered Tibetan forces, and by October 19, 1950, 5,000 Tibetan troops had surrendered[3]. After confiscating their weapons, the PLA soldiers gave their prisoners lectures on socialism, and a small amount of money, and allowed them to return to their homes[3].

The PLA then continued on to central Tibet, but halting its advance 200km to the east of Lhasa, at what China claimed was the boundary of Central Tibet[4], where they stopped and demanded Tibet's "peaceful liberation"[3].

The PLA, while possessing overwhelming military advantage, was also set on winning the hearts and minds of the Tibetan populace[3]. At first, they treated the local populace very well, building roads, and paying locals for their labor[3]. According to Tenzin Gyatso, the current Dalai Lama, the PLA did not attack civilians: "The Chinese were very disciplined. They were like the British soldiers (in 1904). Even better than the British, because they distributed some money (to villagers and local leaders). So they carefully planned"[3].

The PLA sent released prisoners (among them Ngapoi Ngawang Jigme, a captured governor) to Lhasa to negotiate with the Dalai Lama on the PLA's behalf[3]. The PLA promised that if Tibet was "peacefully liberated", the Tibetan elites would keep their privileges and power. At the same time, Jigme and other released captives testified to their good treatment by the PLA[3]. As the PLA had stopped and was asking for peaceful negotiations instead of entering Lhasa unimpeded, the United Nations unanimously dropped the issue from the agenda[3]. The combination of military pressure, reports of good treatment from locals and released prisoners, and the lack of international support convinced the Tibetan representatives to enter negations with the PLA[3].

Several months later, in May 1951, the Tibetan representatives, under PLA military pressure, signed a seventeen-point agreement in Beijing with the PRC's Central People's Government affirming China's sovereignty over Tibet. The agreement was ratified in Lhasa a few months later.[7][1]

6.) Lalu setelah Invasi, apakah pemerintah China bertindak semena2 terhadap rakyat Tibet seperti apa yang selama ini digambarkan di film2 Hollywood?

http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

Quote:

What happened to Tibet after the Chinese Communists moved into the country in 1951? The treaty of that year provided for ostensible self-governance under the Dalai Lama’s rule but gave China military control and exclusive right to conduct foreign relations. The Chinese were also granted a direct role in internal administration “to promote social reforms.” Among the earliest changes they wrought was to reduce usurious interest rates, and build a few hospitals and roads. At first, they moved slowly, relying mostly on persuasion in an attempt to effect reconstruction. No aristocratic or monastic property was confiscated, and feudal lords continued to reign over their hereditarily bound peasants. “Contrary to popular belief in the West,” claims one observer, the Chinese “took care to show respect for Tibetan culture and religion.”25

SarapanPagi · **Joined:** Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:48 pm **Posts:** 96

7.)Terus kenapa sekarang Dalai Lama malah di Dharmsala, India bukan Tibet?

Para aristokrat yang kehilangan hak istimewanya berhasil membujuk Dalai Lama untuk berontak dan bahkan bekerja sama dengan CIA.
Tetapi pemberontakannya gagal karena penduduk Tibet memang tidak mau para aristokrat kembali berkuasa.

Dalai Lama sendiri akhirnya kabur ke India.

http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

Quote:

The issue was joined in 1956-57, when armed Tibetan bands ambushed convoys of the Chinese Peoples Liberation Army. The uprising received extensive assistance from the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), including military training, support camps in Nepal, and numerous airlifts.27 Meanwhile in the United States, the American Society for a Free Asia, a CIA-financed front, energetically publicized the cause of Tibetan resistance, with the Dalai Lama’s eldest brother, Thubtan Norbu, playing an active role in that organization. The Dalai Lama's second-eldest brother, Gyalo Thondup, established an intelligence operation with the CIA as early as 1951. He later upgraded it into a CIA-trained guerrilla unit whose recruits parachuted back into Tibet.28

Many Tibetan commandos and agents whom the CIA dropped into the country were chiefs of aristocratic clans or the sons of chiefs. Ninety percent of them were never heard from again, according to a report from the CIA itself, meaning they were most likely captured and killed.29 “Many lamas and lay members of the elite and much of the Tibetan army joined the uprising, but in the main the populace did not, assuring its failure,” writes Hugh Deane.30 In their book on Tibet, Ginsburg and Mathos reach a similar conclusion: “As far as can be ascertained, the great bulk of the common people of Lhasa and of the adjoining countryside failed to join in the fighting against the Chinese both when it first began and as it progressed.”31 Eventually the resistance crumbled.

8.) Dalai Lama bekerja sama dengan CIA????

http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

Quote:

For the rich lamas and secular lords, the Communist intervention was an unmitigated calamity. Most of them fled abroad, as did the Dalai Lama himself, who was assisted in his flight by the CIA. Some discovered to their horror that they would have to work for a living. Many, however, escaped that fate. Throughout the 1960s, the Tibetan exile community was secretly pocketing $1.7 million a year from the CIA, according to documents released by the State Department in 1998. Once this fact was publicized, the Dalai Lama’s organization itself issued a statement admitting that it had received millions of dollars from the CIA during the 1960s to send armed squads of exiles into Tibet to undermine the Maoist revolution. The Dalai Lama's annual payment from the CIA was $186,000. Indian intelligence also financed both him and other Tibetan exiles. He has refused to say whether he or his brothers worked for the CIA. The agency has also declined to comment.

9.) Bagaimana dengan keinginan penduduk Tibet sendiri?

http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

Quote:

Many ordinary Tibetans want the Dalai Lama back in their country, but it appears that relatively few want a return to the social order he represented. A 1999 story in the Washington Post notes that the Dalai Lama continues to be revered in Tibet, but

. . . few Tibetans would welcome a return of the corrupt aristocratic clans that fled with him in 1959 and that comprise the bulk of his advisers. Many Tibetan farmers, for example, have no interest in surrendering the land they gained during China’s land reform to the clans. Tibet’s former slaves say they, too, don’t want their former masters to return to power. “I’ve already lived that life once before,” said Wangchuk, a 67-year-old former slave who was wearing his best clothes for his yearly pilgrimage to Shigatse, one of the holiest sites of Tibetan Buddhism. He said he worshipped the Dalai Lama, but added, “I may not be free under Chinese communism, but I am better off than when I was a slave.”57

f1do · **Posted:** Fri May 09, 2008 12:57 pm

terus kenapa dalai lama dapet nobel perdamaian donk?
bukankah itu artinya dunia mengakui bahwa doi bener2 dizalimi?

SarapanPagi · **Joined:** Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:48 pm **Posts:** 96

Lihat ini dech : Li Ao (Taiwanese Historian) mengkritisi soal nobel itu di http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cQ5lZki ... re=related

dwiAgus · **Joined:** Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:31 pm **Posts:** 100

1. Satu fakta yang dicatat Michael: Invasi dilakukan PRC, ketika Tibet sedang berdaulat,... dan masyarakat tibet diminta menandatangani treaty agreement under pressure PRC. ...... menurut saya sih udah definisi dari "menjajah" itu,....

2. Selama 50 tahun,.. alangkah naifnya melihat hanya pembangunan jalan,bangunan,gedung,GDP,dll,...yang perlu dibangun itu orangnya.... gemana dengan kulturnya, gimana dengan masyarakat tibetnya..... percuma saja kalau membangun tibet,. .tapi suku Han yang benefit,....
sama seperti membangun Papua,tapi orang jakarta yang menikmatinya,..... dan kita berbangga sudah membangun papua,dengansegala infrastrukturnya,...

3. Memang susah kalau membawa romantisme tibet dengan perbudakan,dan feodalismesnya,... tentu saja masyarakat tibet waktu itu banyak menolak kembalinya gay alama regime TIbet ...... kenapa tidak melihat konteks sekarang ini dan ke depan,... ketika dalailama sudah menyatakan bahwa old regime dari tibet itu (dengan perbudakannya) adalah salah dan demokrasi harus dimajukan,.....

4. Sekali lagi yang didorong adalah: "MASYARAKAT TIBET (termasuk masyarakat grassrootnya) MENENTUKAN NASIBNYA SENDIRI....." ... berani tidak.....
sekarang coba adakan referendum sekarang, .... sepertinya buat masyarakat tibet,. ketauan punya ide seperti itu saja di kepala sudah bisa masuk penjara,...

SarapanPagi · **Joined:** Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:48 pm **Posts:** 96

dwiAgus wrote:

percuma saja kalau membangun tibet,. .tapi suku Han yang benefit,....

Kesaksian ibu Basang, tidak menyatakan bahwa hanya suku suku Han yang dapat benefit. Ia seorang Tibet asli, yang oleh karena kedatangan Tentara Pembebasan martabatnya sebagai manusia telah kembali.

Suku Tibet dapat hidup di propinsi2 lain di China dengan damai, mengapa suku Han tidak boleh hidup di Tibet?

Quote:

PERTAMA DI DUNIA:
Obor Olimpiade Sampai di Puncak Everest
Kamis, 08-05-2008 | 15:07:01

Obor Olimpiade dinyalakan Kamis 8 Mei 2008
pukul 9:12 waktu setempat di puncak Gunung Everest

EVEREST BASE CAMP- Api Olimpiade sukses mencapai Puncak Everest, Kamis (8/5). Ini merupakan saat yang emosional bagi China dan kesuksesan bagi kirab obor Olimpiade yang kerap diwarnai aksi protes. "Hidup Tibet, Hidup Beijing," teriak para pendaki yang semuanya mengenakan baju merah di depan kamera TV setelah mengibarkan bendera China, bendera Olimpiade dan bendera bergambar logo Olimpiade Beijing 2008.

"Beijing menyambutmu, tashi delek," kata mereka saat memberi salam dalam bahasa Tibet yang kurang lebih berarti 'semoga semuanya baik-baik saja.' Saat itu mereka selesai mengantarkan api dalam obor kecil ke puncak setinggi 8.848 meter itu setelah mendaki selama enam jam.

Para pendaki, pejabat dan sekelompok kecil wartawan harus mampu bertahan di ketinggian dengan oksigen tipis, suhu yang nyaris membekukan dan sanitasi dasar. Namun mereka juga menikmati salah satu pemandangan terindah di dunia selama beberapa hari, sebelum akhirnya ada celah cuaca cerah untuk melanjutkan pendakian fase terakhir.

Lima pendaki, dua di antaranya perempuan membawa obor itu ke puncak Everest di tengah suhu minus 30 derajad Celcius. Mahasiswa Beijing, Huang Chungui, menyerahkan obor itu kepada Ciren Wangu, perempuan Tibet yang mengambil beberapa langkah terakhir tanpa bantuan oksigen. Ciren Wangu menginjak puncak pada pukul 09.16 waktu setempat lalu mengacungkan obor itu dengan disambut teriakan gembira para pendaki lain.

Tim Everest yang melibatkan 22 warga Tibet, delapan etnis China Han dan seorang warga minoritas Tujia itu telah berada di gunung itu selama lebih dari sepekan untuk menyiapkan rute lewat dinding timur laut.

"Semua etnis di Daerah Otonomi Tibet sangat bangga. Etnis Tibet dalam hal tertentu memuji momen ini," kata Wu Yingjie, wakil ketua eksekutif wilayah itu. (kompas.com)

http://www.tribunkaltim.com/TRIBUN-KALT ... erest.html

Anda lihat 20 orang suku Tibet dengan bangga mempersiapkan obor Olimpiade bersama-sama dengan suku lain berjumlah total 31 orang, mereka bekerja sama ke puncak Everest, suatu pertanda suku Tibet diberi tempat di daerahnya sendiri.

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dwiAgus wrote:

4. Sekali lagi yang didorong adalah: "MASYARAKAT TIBET (termasuk masyarakat grassrootnya) MENENTUKAN NASIBNYA SENDIRI....."

Grass root yang mana?,
yang teriak2 free Tibet itu yang dulu terusir dari Tibet.
Kaum elite dan feodal yang terusir, lari ke India dan negara lain, mosok dibilang grass-root.

Sebelum 1950, populasi Tibet 1.2 juta, 1jutanya adalah Budak.
Grass-rootnya Tibet itu adalah keturunan 1juta mantan budak.

Masyarakat grass-root yang adalah Mantan Budak, mereka telah FREE!
Masyarakat Tibet grass-root ini hidup nyaman di Tibet.

dwiAgus · **Joined:** Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:31 pm **Posts:** 100

really?
khan belum ada referendum yang mewakili seluruh masyarakat tibet kok,.... ....

memang mereka merasa free dari feodalism dan slavery,. .tapi belum free dari objek jajahan china,...

kalau di hadapan muka prang tibet adalah moncong senjata, dan ancaman masuk bui.... yah wajar lah masyarakat tibet yang dibilang "free" itu tidak bersuara,... dan wajar saja yang di luar tibet lebih berani bersuara,....

waktu jaman orba, juga siapa sih yang berani ngomong "free timor-timur"? kalau ancamannya masuk bui dan diberangus,....

mungkin dicatat lagi paragraph terakhir dari Michael Parenti:
"If China is the great success story of speedy free market development, and is to be the model and inspiration for Tibet’s future, then old feudal Tibet indeed may start looking a lot better than it actually was."

dwiAgus · **Joined:** Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:31 pm **Posts:** 100

Tibet wasn’t ours, says Chinese scholar
Venkatesan Vembu
Daily News and Analysis
Thursday, February 22, 2007

HONG KONG: A leading Chinese historian and a veteran of the committee that advises on official Chinese history textbooks has broken step with the official Chinese line on historical sovereignty over Tibet and said that to claim that the ancient Buddhist kingdom “has always been a part of China” would be a “defiance of history”.

In an article in the China Review magazine, Professor Ge Jianxiong, 62, director of the Institute of Chinese Historical Geography and the Research Centre for Historical Geographic Studies at Fudan University in Shanghai, states that while considering how big China was during the Tang Dynasty (7th to 10th century),“we cannot include the Qinghai-Tibetan Plateau, which was ruled by Tubo/Tufan…”

Tubo/Tufan, notes Ge,“was a sovereignty independent of the Tang Dynasty. At least it was not administered by the Tang Dynasty.” If it were not, he argues, there would have been no need for the Tang emperor of the day to offer Princess Wen Cheng in a “marriage of state” to the Tibetan king, Songtsen Gampo.

“It would be a defiance of history,” asserts Ge,“to claim that Tibet has always been a part of China since the Tang Dynasty; the fact that the Qinghai-Tibetan Plateau subsequently became a part of the Chinese dynasties does not substantiate such a claim.”

Ge’s article is an exploration of a larger theme of Chinese identity in history — and precisely when it evolved. And his comments on Tibet conform to scholarly accounts that acknowledge that the takeover of Tibet during the Qing Dynasty (17th to early 20th century) was the starting point for “Chinese sovereignty” over the region.

Yet, Ge’s comments are controversial insofar as they deviate from the official Communist Party line that Tibet has always been an inalienable part of China; in the past China has regarded as any weakening of that theory as “anti-national” and “splittist”. It will be interesting to see how the authorities respond to Ge’s scholarly article.

Ge’s major research fields include historical population geography, population and migration history, and cultural history. He has written and edited numerous books, and over 100 articles on historical population geography, population and migration history, and cultural history.

In his latest article, Ge notes that prior to 1912, when the Republic of China was officially founded, the idea of China (in Chinese, Zhongguo) wasn’t clearly conceptualised. Even during the late Qing period, he writes, the term ‘China’ would on occasion be used to refer to the “Qing State, including all the territory that fell within the boundaries of the Qing empire”; but at other times, it would be taken to refer only to the “18 interior provinces”, excluding Manchuria, Inner Mongolia, Tibet and Xinjiang. Therefore, he argues,“if we want to understand the extent of ancient China’s territory, we can only speak of how large the actual territory controlled by a particular dynasty was at a particular moment.”

Noting that notions of a ‘Greater China’ were based entirely on the “one-sided views of Qing court records that were… written for the court’s self-aggrandisement”, Ge criticises those who feel that “the more they exaggerate the territory of historical ‘China’ or China’s successive dynasties and kingdoms, the more patriotic they are.”

In fact, he says, the opposite is true.“If China really wishes to rise peacefully and be on a solid footing to face the future, we must understand the sum of our history and learn from our experiences.”

dwiAgus · **Joined:** Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:31 pm **Posts:** 100

kenapa kita liat peta yagn dibuat jerman, us library, atau India....... katanya jangan dengerin media west??

kenapa gak liat peta buatan china sendiri:

Notes: these maps were produced by Chinese during Ming dynast and late Qing.
First one was producded during Ming dyansty.1368 – 1644.Qing map was produced Quangxu areas (1875-19087)
Tibet was not included part of Ming and Qing.

f1do · **Posted:** Tue May 13, 2008 10:33 am

INILAH GAMBARAN CINA SESUNGGUHNYA

Prominent Chinese church leader arrested
Co-author of bold manifesto delivered to communist regime
Posted: December 11, 2004
1:00 am Eastern

© 2008 WorldNetDaily.com

Amid an intense crackdown on China's house churches, authorities arrested one of the country's top Christian leaders, the author of a bold manifesto delivered to the communist regime.

Zhang Rongliang, 53, was taken into custody Dec. 1 at his apartment in Xuzhai village, Zhengzhou city, Henan province, the Oklahoma-based Voice of the Martyrs reported.

Zhang leads the Fangcheng Mother Church in Henan and the China for Christ Church, one of the largest house church networks in the country with an estimated 10 million members.

Co-author of the House Churches of China's Confession of Faith and Declaration in 1999, he is well-known internationally and has been featured in books such as "Jesus in Beijing: How Christianity Is Transforming China and Changing the Global Balance of Power," by former Time magazine journalist David Aikman, and in articles in magazines such as Newsweek.

Zhang already has spent 12 years in prison during five separate detentions since his secret baptism in 1969, VOM said. He experienced harsh torture, including electric shocks, during his prison terms.

VOM sources said a witness saw a Ministry of State Security vehicle parked near Zhang's apartment before the 1 p.m. arrest last week. His wife and children were not home at the time and now are in hiding.

On the evening of the arrest, police surrounded Xuzhai village and searched every house, according to VOM sources, who believe Zhang's wife and children were the targets of the search.

Authorities confiscated Zhang's Christian DVDs, materials and photos revealing relationships with foreigners and foreign agencies.

At least three house churches in the Fangcheng area were raided last week after Zhang's arrest, including the house of the parents of Xiao Min, who is sought by authorities because of her prolific writing of Chinese worship songs known as "Canaan Hymns."

Zhang's arrest comes amid a serious crackdown on China's house churches, said VOM, which notes a "generally worsening situation and increased arrests."

All Protestant and Catholic churches in China are required to be under control of the government, and groups that do not register – the vast majority – are included in the list of "illegal cults."

The government is engaged in a disinformation campaign, similar to one used against the Falun Gong before the major crackdown against the sect, according to VOM.

Articles on an overseas pro-China website called DUOWEI news and in the New York Times portrayed house churches as secret religious fanatics who even commit murder in a battle for new membership.

VOM believes the Chinese government purposely provided misleading and false information to the news outlets by linking the house church with "a criminal group disguised as religion called Eastern Lightning."

In September, more than 100 pastors were arrested in Kaifeng city alone, and at least 11 have been sentenced to one to three years of "re-education through labor."

The pastors sentenced are Zhang Wanshun, Ping Xinsheng, Guo Zhumei ,Yang Jianshe, Zhang Weifang, Zhang Tianyun, Yu Xiangzhi, Yu Guoying, Shun Fu, Chen Yanjing and Li Qun.

Ranging in age from 25 to 57, each was accused as "leaders of an evil cult" and already has experienced harsh treatment, including severe beatings.

Ping lost consciousness three times due to continuous beatings since his arrest in August, VOM said.

VOM sources fear Zhang, who has suffered from diabetes for five years, could face harsh treatment by police.

"As the leader of a large house-church network, he could be classified as an evil cult leader," the group said.

Police also are seeking Zhang's two sons and could pressure him to give information about them and the activities of other church leaders.

dwiAgus · **Joined:** Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:31 pm **Posts:** 100

fido mungkin juga pernah dengar kasus Shi Tao,... jurnalis yang dipenjara 10 tahun karena mengirim informasi ttg pelanggaran HAM ke website prodemocracy di luar china,.. berkat Yahoo!China, Shi Tao dapat tertangkap dan dijatuhi hukuman seberat itu,.... dan Yahoo akhirnya dicaci maki oleh US COngress, dan akhirnya Jeffery Yang minta maaf ke keluarga Shi Tao dan katanya memberikan kompensasi,...

jadi ,menurut saya sih sangat naif kalau bilang: "wong masyarakat TIbet yang tinggal di tibet diam2 ajah kok, yang ribut khan yang di luar tibet sana",..
ya iya lah yau,.... kalau di depan mukanya ancaman masuk bui 10 tahun,...... wajar ajah diam-diam ajah, keliatan adem ayem,....

f1do · **Posted:** Fri May 16, 2008 2:38 pm

dwiAgus wrote:

fido mungkin juga pernah dengar kasus Shi Tao,... jurnalis yang dipenjara 10 tahun karena mengirim informasi ttg pelanggaran HAM ke website prodemocracy di luar china,..

yang ini belum pernah denger sih..
tapi emang banyak pelanggaran HAM berat di china
termasuk tibet itu jg,dan penginjil2 di negeri cina

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